Dave Winer's OSCOM Keynote

This is a log from irc://irc.freenode.net/oscom on 2003-05-29.

More: Links to further coverage.

<AaronSw>Dave Winer - Keynote
 let's not build walls. closed, proprietary -- terrible things to say about someone
 no longer an active software developer
 i did open source and commercial (use that term) software
 i released most of the source code for commercial software
 just had no redistribution right
<sandro>(hi, Aaron, sorry I kept missing your yesterday.)
<AaronSw>most people didn't care about having the source code
 it's not microsoft v. you, lots in between
* sandrowishes he were there. :-/
<bitsko>somebody musta found a hotspot, or a landline ;)
<AaronSw>our customers were being told that we were stealing from them. that's not nice!
 we dont want ot be friends with folks who say that
 open source's philosophy is based in the bubble
 everyone's doing a mixture now
 (we had both before but they were mac-address blocked)
 interrupt, feel free. if you don't, i'll bore you
 Joseph Reagle: proprietary was a good word; open source turned it evil
 Dave: have you produced proprietary software?
 reagle: no
 Dave: people need the 40 people shrinkwrap company, and that's gone now. you can't get that from open source
 [paul everitt keeps nodding]
* bitskokeeps going "so what?"
<AaronSw>it's relatively easy to write unix. it's ease of use that's hard
* bitskonotes that he's not formulating any questions for the session and his mutterings shouldn't be taken as such ;)
<AaronSw>Halley Suitt: What does Linux look like? Where's the marketing?
 [someone shows her linux]
 DW: plugs linux advocacy howto
 my software sucks. i'm trying to make it better.
* bitskohates that meme, since he knows how easy it is to write quality software. Quality *is* free.
<AaronSw>(I don't think it's free. It's hard work, but not imposisble.)
 xml-rpc. darling of the open source world. microsoft helped invent it. philosophy: i'll do whatever you ask
<sandro>which meme? that software is inherently buggy?
<AaronSw>"can i have X?" yes, unless there's a reason
 people didn't suggest complex things because they knew it would be accepted
<bitsko>(writing quality software often improves individual and team performance. it's a habit. as a habit, it may be hard to "get into", but once you're into it, it most assuredly is free forever)
<AaronSw>they argued against their own ideas because everyone else would accept them
<bitsko>(sandro: yes, that software is inherently buggy)
* bitskonotes xml-rpc was nothing of the sort, but oh well
<AaronSw>Tony Berne, CMSWatch: there are successful 40-person shrinkwrap server software firms int he CMS market. they seal open source
 (what sort? simple?)
<sandro>I'm really curious about your data, bitsko. Do you agree or disagree with books like "XP Explained" and "Agile Software Development" ?
<AaronSw>DW: the key is to be a user. make stuff you want to use
<bitsko>I agree with XP Explained and Agile Software Development, unless we're crossed here, I think they support what I'm saying
<sandro>I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. :-) Agreeing with those help me narrow down the possible interpretations.
<AaronSw>DW: people say they want open source. you don't actually want the source -- what do you really want?
 i think it's something else you can't articulate
 freedom? no-lockin? choice? creativity?
 which probably falls in the bucket of "freedom"
<sandro>control (freedom, no-lockin)
* bitskonods
<AaronSw>Larry Rosen: create derivative works
<sandro>creativity and a sense that the creators are "my kind of people" comes too, but some proprietary/commercial systems get that too.
 true ownership -- not feeling like I'll lose part of my computer when they go out of business.
<AaronSw>someone else?: i want to be able to fix the software or hire someone too
 DW: but you can just export the data and import it to a new app
<besfred>(stupid argument)
<sandro>In many cases you can't just export & re-import. XML & RDF are hoping to change that. Also, I get used to the user interface & quirks.
<bitsko>yes, an *open source* app, so we'll never have *that* problem again.
<AaronSw>aaron: add features, fix bugs
 someone: source code escrow would be good
 sam ruby: don't want to be stranded
 sam: my weblog doesn't look good in IE; want to fix that
 DW: I agree. if MS had code in escrow, kick it out now
 DW: they should give up IE as a penalty for antitrust
 DW: it's like keeping the gun you used to commit a murder
<bitsko>that's why I don't think source code escrow is practical, because no way would IE be out
<AaronSw>Bruce Tchaikovsky: i can build a good API into open source software
 DW: real software products aren't things of beauty. APIs go on the outside
 Paul Everitt, Zope: +1 on usability. need a motivator, more than helps me and geek cred
 DW: another reason is job security. don't want to lose consilting revenue
 Paul: geeks don't think that far ahead
 Paul: need to put users first, work together
 Paul: everyone needs to create a TLA for memetic self-preservation
 DW: we stand on the toes of giants
<bitsko>not sure where the job security comment comes from. I usually equate "job security" thinking with intentional complexity. I've found myself continually employed just by saying that my software is as readable and understandable as possible.
<AaronSw>?x: why should we use proprietary software?
 DW: you shouldn't. (beat) use software based on features, not religion
<bitsko>aha! something I agree with
<AaronSw>DW: tool, not religion. lots of churches, they do a much better job IMO
 Bill Airn(ph): democracies need a right to vote. do we need a reason to vote? have a free market?
 ... free markets can't allow monopolies
<bitsko>even monopolies of free software (Apache, Linux) are a bad thing in the long term
<AaronSw>DW: open source seems like communism, not freem market
 (i think he might have meant monopoly in the copyright sense)
<bitsko>yes, of which there isn't any in the open source world, so one can only presume in the marketshare sense
<AaronSw>DW: will anyone actually fix the bugs? no one's fixing the bugs on all those source forge bugs
 Sam Ruby: that's why i use apache. someone in this audience will fix it
 ... it's going to be around for a while
<bitsko>there's negative association with "communism", and "free market" implies money, even when we're not discussing money (or are we?)
 hello? when do commercial companies empty out their bug trackers?
<AaronSw>DW: yeah! software should last 30 years. let's not reinvent the wheel
<sandro>Every quarter, they drop it on the floor. :-)
* bitskowould laugh, but he's seen it done.
<AaronSw>Larry Rosen: non-tech people see open source as MS's only competitor
<bitsko>does "post scarcity" have negative association?
<AaronSw>DW: yep
 DW: if i solve a problem, admit it. use it, clone it
 DW: I honored Apache when building Manila, but the Apache people just ignore Manila cuz it's not open source. that makes me angry!
 DW: take my ideas! i'm not patenting them
 Mark Blonder(ph), IMB: I think Manila didn't make it because of Radio userland
 DW: wha!??!? Manila made it!
 Mark: You've got a support and documentation issue. b-logger has the same thing
 DW: there's no money in software!!!
<AaronSw>DW: can't wish it into existence! $39.95 doesn't answer a lot of questions!!
 DW: it's not whether you like stallman or gates. i don't like either, neither take baths
 DW: (that's the soundbite)
 ?z: what about RSS?
 DW: RSS stands for Really Simple Syndication. Agree or Disagree? Subset of RDF or straight XML?
 DW: if 5-10 people read all the archives and read the history, we'd go back before the 1.0 fork
 DW: let's get the world rational again
<AaronSw>... gradually upgrade
 ... had that happened, no RSS 2.0 today
<bitsko>and no namespace either.
<AaronSw>DW: Joi Ito wanted to know content:encoded or description or what
<AaronSw>... man, I don't know.
 ... that's a disastert
 ... we have one final shot at getting this right. MS and AOL are coming!
 ... W3C members that love to argue and fight and throw money at each other
 ... we need to be solid before we deal with them
<bitsko>no, it's not. it's a discussion that's close to winding up, but most believe it needs to be done in the open.
<AaronSw>... follow the blazed trail
 Sam: been with IBM 21 years. hear "one shot" constantly; it's never one shot. it's a rallying cry, life goes on
 ... RSS is best-supported. let's do it incrementally
 DW: our ethos is "if you do it first, i'll follow you" we shoulda done that with rss
 ... so do what UL did, we did it first
 ... you wouldn't like it, evan (if you were evan) if we changed the blogger api w/o taalking to you
<bitsko>if anyone cares to look back before the 1.0 fork, they would clearly see the EXACT SAME THING people are asking for today: open standards, a level playing field
<AaronSw>... i implemented trackback to. the. spec.
<bitsko>aha, here we get to the "Userland did RSS, we own it"
<AaronSw>DW: need to get back on track. blogger + MT + userland is pretty powwerful
 Sam: aggregators need a vote
<bitsko>I don't see "users" in that equation.
<AaronSw>DW: no votes. no standard bodies
 Sam: Joe(?) has a point too
 DW: once we three get compat. then we can do Joe's thing from there
 Bill Kearney, Syndic8.com:
 DW: oh, you're Bill Kearney. my god
<AaronSw>Bill: saber-rattling. platitudes. democracy. benevolent dictatorship. guise.
 DW: stop.
<AaronSw>DW: had i known you were in the audience i would have said this
<Mutiny>damn i wish i was there.
<AaronSw>DW: I want to say this face-to-face: i don't like where you're going, i don't want to hear those thoughts
<sandro>damn i wish i was there. :-)
<AaronSw>DW: say them on your weblog. i don't want to go there
<Mutiny>this is getting juicy ahaha
<AaronSw>Charlie Nesson: that seems like total bs
<sandro>now I want to know what Bill Kearny says.
<AaronSw>Bill Kearney: thank you. now everyone's see this
<Mutiny>if this comes to blows i'm getting on the T and comming down.
<AaronSw>Bill kearney: we want to collaborate
 DW: are you finished
 Charlie Nesson: explain the obvious enmity. what is the dispute
 DW: i don't even know where to begin
<bitsko>(what was the applause to?)
<AaronSw>Kearney: it's not productive
 DW: stop! i was just pausing to think
 (to charlie)
 DW: this is why mailing lists don't work
 ... the things he's said are the most appauling personal things
 Kearney: name them
 DW: get the microphoen away
 ... i didn't interrupt you
<bitsko>it doesn't work in person either, apparently
<AaronSw>audience: yes you did!
 DW: but i let him speak
 audience: it is your keynote
 DW: Sam has once made a personal comment. it's ok! i forgive you. ok, maybe twice
 ... i love working with sam
* sandrois so greatful to Aaron for channeling this.
<Morbus>sandro: got a backlog?
<AaronSw>... he takes the high road, he's intelligent. i care what other people think
<Mutiny>me too.
* bitskothanks aaron too!
<Mutiny>morbus stand by
<AaronSw>... i told people to interrupt me, in my defense
<Morbus>mutiny: thanks
<AaronSw>... whatever you think about me, i've made a lot of contributions
&;(it's being taped, apparently)
<sandro>Want my to mail it to you Morbus?
<AaronSw>... i didn't ask bill kearney to do this
* AaronSwmails to morbus
<AaronSw>DW: almost out of time
<Morbus>someone, anyone, yes ;)
<Mutiny>i KNEW this was going to turn into a fuckfest. that's why i wanted to go. ;)
<Morbus>got it from aaron. thanks.
<AaronSw>Gregor: need to build cultural interop
<Morbus>if someone can get me an mp3 of that tape, it'd be great.
<AaronSw>... we meet in pub and drink beer
 DW: that ain't gonna happen
 DW: this guy
 DW: this guy went further. i have heart disease. i had bypass, long recovery, lot of pain
 ... trying to get back by posting
 ... and _this asshole_ wished me dead
 DW: absolutely true. don't want to deal with it. he's got a problem and he projects it
* bitskosees a Burton Event occuring
<AaronSw>Larry Rosen: one of the frustrations I have is people hate each other in open source
 DW: thaat's what we're talkign about here
<bitsko>(sigh. no it's not.)
<AaronSw>Larry: unfortunarte. can law professors give us clues on how to litigate against someone and represent the client to the utmost but shake the hand of your opponent afterwords
 ... good battle, more later
 DW: we haven't gotten there in software yet
 Nesson: needs a moderator who's not self-interested
 Nesson: you can't moderate this
 DW: moderate what?
 Nesson: let's move sideways and structure something
 DW: won't do it
 Nesson: neither the moderator, both speak
 ... that's the law school approach
 [much applause]
 DW: do whatever you want charlie
 ?x: I finally understand why Jerry Sringer was invented in the US
 [much laughs]
 DW: i'm sorry, we were doing really well before
 purploe shirt: look at academia. to get credit, you need to publish it and provide a wy to repeat it
 ... not only do the procedure, but give away the materials
 ... software equivalent: give away the source
 ... credit goes to the academic side
&nsbp;DW: sorry, a few minutes ago i would have been all over that
* bitskonotes to the online crowd that Bill Kearney did NOT, in fact, make any death threats to Dave Winer.
<AaronSw>DW: time to end
<Morbus>bitsko: did I?
<bitsko>nor you, that I recall
<sandro>"death threats" is not the same as "wished me dead". (but I take no stand on the fact, knowing nothing of this before today.)
<AaronSw>audience: that's a great argument for letting machines write code
* AaronSwwondes what to do next
<sandro>machines can't write code, not in an useful sense.
<Mutiny>see the discussion where every time dwiner is criticized he brings up his heart problem
<sandro>what they can write, we don't call ("source") code.
<Mutiny>is it just me or does DW -hate- aggregrators?
<Morbus>DW doesn't know what one is.
 if its not modeled after RU, its not an aggregator.
 see his "What is an Aggregator" piece a while back
<bitsko>more specifically, Bill Kearney did not "wish him dead"
<Mutiny>anybody here want to scan an OSCOM conference badge?
<Morbus>technically, AmphetaDesk is not an aggregator.
 per his definitions.
<Mutiny>yeah i mean between you, kearney and burtonator he seems to have some serious issues.